2. If Vatican II simply confirmed those dogmas and doctrines, then why does the Vatican insist that SSPX accept everything in VII? Does his opinion count? SSPX is not unique and not the only Catholic group that wont interpret everything in VATICAN II along dogmatic channeling. I only read it in Fr. Andrew Bartel Let us not worry so much about vindicating famous/infamous Pope Francis or vindicating famous/infamous Archbishop Lefebvre. The very fact the penalty was lifted/ex natura rei also confirms that the schismatic acts/tendencies had been judged to have ceased; and it was based upon the pledge of obedience to the Holy Father and such by the sspx bishops that it was done. He simply did.. Bishop Huonders unsubstantiated anecdotal account of Pope Francis personal opinion is outweighed by the popes official statements given in his letter to the bishops accompanying Traditiones Custodes and in his apostolic letter Misericordia et Misera. Yeh that is like saying Chick Comics is just being critical of Roman Catholics in Biblical times or today. Pope Francis prays in front of new cardinals during consistory inside St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican on Aug. 27, 2022. Jim the Scott, to avoid any confusion in case your remark is addressed for mine to Gus, I wish myself to add fair comment upon my own input. To this day, they exalt him as a hero and revere him as a saint. Bingo. Antisemitism. Once more: a canonical faculty to administer a sacrament that can only be granted to members of the Catholic Church is not the same thing as an emergency power to administer a sacrament in emergencies or other special circumstances acknowledged by the Church. We live in a Church where the German bishops are in full communion and the SSPX are schismatic?! 976 Even though a priest lacks the faculty to hear confessions, he absolves validly and licitly any penitents whatsoever in danger of death from any censures and sins, even if an approved priest is present., Can. Also, neither he, nor any other authority of the holy see over the last few decades, has said that sspx marriages and confessions were invalid all this time. They can get it wrong. But it is illicit and doesnt have Catholic Faith by virtue of it being schismatic. Mr. Gus the things you describe could look like the esteemed polyhedron with many undefended sides and outposts; and can overpower, including by. Thats unlikely to be the case in US counties with SSPX communities. I do recall a news story sometime ago that the Argentina government (the state, not the Church) has recognized SSPX as part of the Catholic Church and has included it in its official registry of churches. I cannot now in good conscience set foot in a NO sanctuary where I run the risk of being one of those Our Blessed Mother feared would trample the precious body of her divine son. Next, Pope Francis specifically mentions his trust in the good will of the priests of the SSPX to strive with Gods help for the recovery of full communion in the Catholic Church.. Francis will grant all eastern orthodox the same privileges. For those who have already abandoned the Church to join the movement of the SSPX, St. Francis De Sales has these words: Tell me, what business had you to hear them and believe them without having any assurance of their commission and of the approval of Our Lord, whose legates they called themselves? He clarified further that until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministerseven though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penaltydo not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.11 It is also worth pointing out the precedent set by Pope Paul VI in 1965 when he lifted the declared excommunication on the Orthodox church, which obviously did not end the schism. The faithful of the 23 Eastern Catholic Churches agree with you. Miss Happy Catholic, I join you in congratulating Mr. Bartel. Please, if you have evidence that the Churchs problems arose because of Vatican II, produce it. As a sincere recommendation, I nominate Father John Zuhlsdorf to directly address the points raised by Mr. Bartel. obtusely maintain that its either full communion or no communion. Understanding this reality with superior wisdom and an insight that Bartel cant even dream of having (yet he felt compelled to criticize Bishop Schneider and suggests the bishop lacks understanding; what a crock), the good Bishop Schneider has correctly stated that the SSPX is not currently in full communion with the Church, but neither are they outside the Church in a status of schism. The SSPX bishops are episcupus vagans who have rejected numerous offers of regularization from Rome. Third, the paragraph beginning with NEXT: providedshe states the sspx may not be in schism but their canonical status is irregular. Isnt that what Jesus wants? Lefebvres plan of consecrating bishops illegally, but still he went through with it. This demonstrates an important precedent: for the good of souls, the Church has the power to grant faculties even to priests who are not in good standing, but this is not an approval of them or their situation. I have demonstrated from both the official sources and the historical context that this is imprudently jumping to conclusions, as can be seen from the words of the Pope Francis himself. You completely missed the point of the analogy, and like many other comments you make, such is a non-sequitur. If you still insist on your claim, perhaps you can define for us what a faculty is and tell us which ones need to be granted by the bishop to a newly ordained priest or one in good standing already? This is yet another example of poor scholarship on the part of the SSPX apologists. ROME ( ChurchMilitant.com) - Pope Francis is requiring that the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) accept an orthodox interpretation of Vatican Council II and the validity of the new Mass in order. Give it up. Since my letter was published, I have publicly debated a pro-SSPX apologist, engaged in many discussions with both former and current supporters of Msgr. Zs blog on the Status of the SSPX (April 16, 2020) so you can stop embarrassing yourself by making bogus claims not in line with Church teaching and Canon Law. The statement by Pope Benedict in 2009 is something I have been well aware of for many years, so the citation you provide is superfluous, but perhaps others will benefit from it. Slandering Jews, the Talmud and Judaism as a religion is Radtrad golf.. I have personally known several SSPX priests rather well. I would point more to Gaudium et Spes, which has some verbose moments (it also has a powerful section on marriage, family, sexuality). Worse, sir, that he proposes to insert his singular biographical to determine how this goes. Remember the SSPX were kicked to the curb. If you have any influence on your friend I would beg you to influence her to leave the so-called Society of Saint Pius X. At times this important topic/debate seems like just another version of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?but alas there are important technicalities involved and so getting into the weeds is necessary. If the man is such a scrub, it should nor be ard fur ye to make short work of em. Love, Margarita). Oh, yeah. I find my spirituality and the concomitant elements of the TLM harmonious. Therefore, the SSPX is not schismatic. to hear confessions, to preach. The Fathers of the Church with one voice say there is no excuse for Schism even upon the admission the Church is now being ruled by wicked and sinful men. Well said. It was Pope Pius XII who was in heresy. Bartel claims that BXVI and Francis confirmed and renewed a claim of schism, but there is no evidence/citation for it, but the contrary, as dealt with below. Neither his method nor his process nor his evidentiary can be addressed intelligently through your appeal to St. Francis Assisi for every man, woman and child globally in need -on grounds that St. Francis had compassion for all Joes and Janes. 10. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. Its my opinion that leftism and not Vatican II that is responsible for the problems you cite in the Church. This, so-called schism has actually LED the orthodoxy AND belief. An Open Letter to lay Dominican brother, Andrew Bartel: The Holy See press office issued a statement on April 4 saying Pope Francis and Bishop Fellay had met on April 2 in the . Gus. St. Athanasius was excommunicated by a pope and banished from one or more dioceses. , https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/is-anyone-in-full-communion-with-rome. Many of these revisionists were Bishops, Arch-Bishops and Cardinals. Our personal sins affect us, our belief, our future actions. Lastly, in quoting Dom Prosper Gueranger, note once again the last statement by the abbott: If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. Its more about our universal broken human nature & the need for a scapegoat. To all honest readers of CWR, the following is a key understanding to have and maintaine when examining the issue of the status of the SSPX: Regardless of what Bartel et al. Did you even read my essay? Martin Luther pointed to supposed faults by members of the Churchs hierarchy. We go to Mass to GIVE God the worship he deserves, not to GET something out of it. What is the Status of the Society of Pope Saint Pius X (SSPX) Pope Benedict himself did lift the excommunications of the four bishops. Anyway, its fun how the hypocrisy appears. Offences against Religion and the Unity of the Church, whereas consecration without papal mandate is another thing, and dealt with in its own part of the Code, viz. One could still say there was schism declared in 1988, at least involving those individual bishops, but which was remedied in 2009. would seem quite difficult- would you survey your average diocesan tlm community or how would you determine it? Lefebvre made the decision to consecrate 4 bishops and acccording to the vatican hereby engaged in a schismatic act.(Not schism mind you, but one singular act). This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes.14. The Boston Heresy is interpreting invisible cases of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance as being visible exceptions for EENS as it was known to the missionaries in the 16th century. On the contrary, the contumacy of the SSPXs schismatic actions (i.e., illicit Masses, ordinations, annulment courts, rejection of the new rite of Mass as evil, etc.) >> Bartel, in view of the sensitivity affecting everyone who does not have a stamped paper saying he or she is not in schism, SSPX among them; why didnt you write about SSPX according to their virtues and viability and the hope they have in our Lord. This has always been the constant attitude of the Church toward schism, as the Catholic Encyclopedia makes surprisingly clear: Some have claimed the introduction into the Church of abuses, dogmatic and liturgical novelties, superstitions, with which they are permitted, even bound, not to ally themselves. What would then become of them? His expose is neither a condemnation or acceptance of V2 or the liturgical changes. Non-Catholics citing the Council can try to lead with their own kinds of hermeneuitcs of orthodoxy to whatever purpose. 7. I have no trouble stipulating that his new Lutheran church probably did avoid at least some of those abuses. Chaos is destructive, demoralizing. Along with about 98% of the dictionary. On the contrary, there is never justification for schismatic actions and the fabrication of a schismatic movement. Before closing out this combox contribution, please note that I am not a member of the SSPX, nor do I attend SSPX masses, but like all good-hearted Catholics, I take a similar approach to that of the good Bishop Athanasius Schneider by hoping and praying for full reconciliation as soon as possible so that the SSPX can go beyond the incomplete/irregular communion they have now and soon enjoy full communion with Rome. Thank you, everyone, for such a lively discussion. But again, its the same in other circles. On the contrary, the members of the SSPX and its adherents do not give the full assent of both intellect and will to the Churchs doctrine of the papacy, nor do they submit to the Supreme Pontiff in important matters of faith, discipline, and governance. If there are no contradiction between the previous Councils and VII then why the emphasis on VII? Not a few recent CWR comment box contributors seem troubled with anti Semitism also. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. Aside from the ability to witness marriages and absolve, they have also previously been delegated the ability to do things like hold judgement over their own clerics vs. having the congregation for the faith do such, for matters the latter would otherwise handle. Pope Francis has named Bishop Joseph Shen Bin to head the vacant Shanghai diocese after China moved him from Jiangsu province earlier this year in an apparent violation of a bilateral pact. by claiming that certain of their sacraments are invalid, which they would be if they were schismatic. Thank you, Carl, for allowing me an edit to say: There is some ambiguous and nebulous language in VCII documents. Click here to sign up for our newsletter. 1. This article is ridiculous in 2023 with what we have seen in the past 60 years with spirit of V2 reforms. If the SSPX are not in need of reconciliation, why would they need to strive for the recovery of full communion? President Kennedys assassination? A blessed Lent to you. If so, he is declaring that all who go to confession to an SSPX priest are going to confession to aliens of the Church despite the Pope sending the SSPX priests to hear confessions and provide absolution. A. Bartel: Your ramblings (including things that nobody disputes but you feel the need to post them) have been answered along with a corrective to your flawed understanding of Misericordia et misera in a recent response to Timothy Williams that will hopefully soon be posted by CWR so you and others can see how you continue to maintain a false conclusion based on your most decidedly non-authoritative and incorrect application of authoritative materials. The continued sacrificing of Sedevacantists as scapegoats falls flat, for they also confess belief in the Petrine doctrines, and only differ in their refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of the current pope (indeed, the SSPX is even more culpable than the Sedevacantists, for its leaders have no doubts as to the Popes existence and identity). The SSPX does indeed need to work on regaining full communion since they only possess a limited or incomplete communion known as an irregular status, which is not schism, and as more fully explained in my response to Timothy. The author doesnt seem to have considered the question of how to act, what can we do, when faced with a crisis of authority in the Church. Where I attend, its typical to see 3 generations and our chapel is always full for the High Mass.. To DocVerit: This was the Boston Heresy of Pope Pius XII. Pope Francis recognizes China's unilateral appointment of Shanghai bishop I am indeed enjoying a blessed Lent, and I hope the same for you and your loved ones. And Francis did not actually grant them a faculty for confession but did at least infer they already possessed it. In fact, they arguments are about the PARTICULAR magisterium and disciplinal laws that proceeds from the Vatican II teachings, which arent made in the traditional catholic way; in fact, its a complex doctrinal question, which is still very discussed and that, like SSPX or not, wasnt formally defined, and is not simple as the author express in a very pedant way. We cannot put our trust in popes; they are infallible only in very circumscribed instances. Okay, I get you. Can we be totally indifferent about a community which has 491 priests, 215 seminarians, 6 seminaries, 88 schools, 2 university-level institutes, 117 religious brothers, 164 religious sisters and thousands of lay faithful? It is a problem. by any validly ordained priest inside or outside the Catholic Church? Had you been properly charged under law ABC, penalty 2 was the same as the one penalty under DEF, but based on what you actually did, only penalty 1 that is lesser than penalty 2 was the just result. These actions presuppose some degree of communion, even a high one, among other things. God bless you and your loved ones this holy season.
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